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User talk:Proudhug/Archive 1
Check out the main Talk page or the other archives (2, 3). David Palmer I'm sorry to ask, but why did you revert all of my edits of David Palmer? All of the editing I had done is gone, now the links I placed there are gone, the sidebar is changed back to the old style, and there is no information on 24: The Game. Xtreme680 : Talk:David Palmer --Proudhug 20:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC) Ordering episodes in Categories Now that you have the Category:Episodes in order, Category:Day 1, Day 2, Day 3, ect. need the episodes put in order. -CWY2190 03:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC) : I guess we could've been doing that all along, but I didn't think of it until halfway through. I might go back and do it later if no one else does. If you're up to the task, the best way to do it would probably to add "|Day 101", "|Day 421", etc. This way, they'll be listed under "D" as the article should be, but they'll be listed in chronological order. --Proudhug 03:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC) Something I just wish to inquire about. I've noticed now a few episodes that are directly taken from the website on Fox. Should I delete the text? -WarthogDemon 18:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC) Articles for deletion I received this message from another user "Why did you just replace a research file's content with 'This should be deleted'? --User:Tuntis" Along with a message about his change to one of my markings. "(diff) (hist) . . Go; 03:43 . . Tuntis (Talk) (REVERT, Incorrect, idiot, this is a research file.)" I'm not quite sure what to do. Sorry to bother you once again. I showed him the dialogue that we had, but I don't want to get into an edit/revert war with the research files. - Xtreme680 : I think it might be best to create a meta-page which includes nominations for deletion. I think Wikipedia and Memory-Alpha have a page like this. Rather than replacing the entire text with "This should be deleted" you can propose the deletion and wait for reactions. In this specific example, I'm not sure that "Go" should be deleted. I've stated why on its talk page. --Proudhug 08:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC) That sounds like an excellent idea. I've put the page up here. Articles for deletion. I'm not sure if you want to put the link up elsewhere. However, just so you know Go has never been mentioned on 24. It would be ridiculous for it to be on there, and there's no context to put it with. - Xtreme680 : I just rewatched the episode in question and didn't find any reference to Go, so I've deleted the page. If it is discovered in the future that it was mentioned or shown, someone can recreate the article and include only the relevant information. --Proudhug 17:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Hey Proudhug - I've added all of the vandal redirect pages from the past few days to the "Articles for Deletion" page. There's no rush in getting to deleting them, but I was wondering if we should have an Archive for the AfD page, similiar to the one for The Situation Room. I don't know if it's necessary or not, but I thought that after you clean up the page and remove the month-old nominees, someone else might come along and nominate Chess again. It might be helpful to have an archive that documents what happened to each nominee. -Kapoli 07:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC) : I don't see a need to archive every proposal, but perhaps I'll compile a list of rejected deletion proposals once they've expired. --Proudhug 15:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Research Files Hey, I didn't mean to overstep my bounds with some of the style pages, I've just been doing a lot of editing and I figured we could at least use a page so that we could start talking about what sort of stuff that we wanted to have for a style. Concerning pages with non-24 information. Do you want us to have external links to their real life counterparts, perhaps a link to the wikipedia page? And concerning the research files. I plan on going through them and improving on the ones that are being used and have a basis in 24. The rest of them, I will delete all the content on so that you can delete the pages at a later date. Is this a good solution to our problem? - Xtreme680 : I personally don't have a problem with pages having external links to more information on "real life" counterparts, certainly in lieu of including it in the main body of the article. However, this too can become too much, of course. One or two external links will usually suffice, since no one's going to come to Wiki 24 specifically to learn about NSA or nuclear weapons. Or at least, they shouldn't. Your plan for the Research Files sounds like a good one. Let me know if you need any more help and/or advice. : Also, I'd like to say that you're doing some excellent work here and everyone appreciates your efforts to help create a consistent style for Wiki 24. Don't be afraid to continue doing this in the future for policies and procedures that haven't been addressed yet. If people disagree, they'll pipe up. Always remember Wiki Rule #1: Be bold! --Proudhug 01:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Cool. I have gone through the Research Files and either removed links that we will never use, or marked the already created ones with a message the it needs to be deleted. I will eventually go through all the research files and decide if it needs a page, or if we simply shouldn't ever have a page on it. I will then make pages for the ones that need it that correspond specifically to the show. Right now, all I need you to do is delete the pages I have marked for deletion. - Xtreme680 Vandalism Some jerk has moved Jack's page and Palmer's page. I don't know the best way to correct the problem... can you take care of it? And perhaps ban the person ("Blitz")? Thanks! --Kapoli 18:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC) This is like a Division lockdown alert; some guy called Rapper has openly declared himself as a vandal, and destroyed the Melanie page. I fixed it, but we should block him ASAP. --Conspiracy Unit 22:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC) : Wow, that was the weakest vandal attack ever. They guy blanked two pages. --Proudhug 01:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC) Adjusting the sidebars So should someone go around and take out the "No Wrap" for every episode sidebar that has 2 or more writers? We've been displaying the last names only and leaving the "No Wrap" in, because it keeps the sidebars the same size and keeps the writer portion of the sidebar at just one line. -Kapoli 14:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC) : Unless people have a problem with two writers = two lines. I don't like the clipped look of only including last names. Besides, what happens when you've got more than two writers? --Proudhug 15:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC) Characters Mentioned Sorry about the change to Nicki. I've seen lots of mentioned characters with just the one line of being mentioned and others with both lines (first and last mentioned). Should I make them all so they're just the one line? -WarthogDemon 16:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC) : "First mentioned" and "Last mentioned" are only needed if there was more than one mention, otherwise "Mentioned in" is used. The same rule applies for "First seen" and "Last seen". However, there are still many pages that haven't been changed over yet. --Proudhug 16:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC) Minor Edits Is there a way to view the "statistics" of season episodes? I know how minor edits can clutter up the Latest Intel, and tried working on one writer/director while skimming episodes in multiple windows, but run into technical difficulties as a result. My apologies for this and I hope the way I'm going about it isn't too messy. -WarthogDemon 00:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC) : I'm not sure what you mean by statistics, but another method might be to put the information into a Word or Notepad file before uploading it. --Proudhug 00:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC) Disambiguation Okay, I'm confused. You got rid of the Megan disambig page. But according to the Manual of Style you wrote, there should be one because there's a Megan with only a first name. Right? --StBacchus 13:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC) : I apologize, I guess that should be cleared up. The disambiguation page isn't necessary since there's only one other Megan article and, as it stands, a link directing readers to the other one is sufficient. If a third Megan is later seen, then "Megan" would become a disambiguation page and "Megan (One Shot)" would become the comic character. I'm very sorry about the confusion. --Proudhug 16:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC) ::Yea, no problem. With all the problems we've been having over disambiguation, it seems like a good idea to make it clear who we're talking about. One other thing, I just noticed now that some characters with disambiguation have (Day 4), while others have (Season 4). (For example, Graham (Day 2), vs Graham (Season 2).) I may have screwed everything up completely by changing all the links to (Day 4). I had no idea which way we wanted it, so I just sort of went with what I thought was right, though I may have been wrong. So, uh, sorry if I was wrong. I'm gonna go change some more links... - Xtreme680 18:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC) WikiProject I run the 24 Wikiproject over at WikiPedia, it's kinda bland for all the 24 articles. Do you think we could get a link on here for some potential help? : Well, Wiki 24 isn't a site to advertise other projects, so I'm not sure where it would get a link. If you can come up with an appropriate way of doing so, I don't have a problem. You might also want to add it to your User page. --Proudhug 01:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC) :: I'll place it in my user profile. Just making sure. Thanks! Vandalism There has been a major vandalism attack with moved pages and whatnot, please ban the user as soon as possible, its very easy to move pages and hes moving faster than I can move pages back. - Xtreme680 21:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC) : All better! :) --Proudhug 21:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC) :: Thanks. Btw, is there any way to get my page normal? I'm not sure what exactly this guy does but I can't move my page back even after fixing it. O.o And I hope that I've done a good job fighting spam here. Hope I don't get carried away. >.> -WarthogDemon 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Today, the Proudhug is my e-hero. Thanks for your vigilance. How about a lock feature or a bot or something? Cymra37 01:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC) : Just in the right place at the right time. Actually, I just wasted my break at work. Oh wait, I'd've wasted it anyway. --Proudhug 01:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Main Page Vandalism? Do we consider what 75.3.16.147 did on the Main Page to be vandalism? He/she deleted everything up to "Conspiracy". I don't know if it was an accident, or what, but should we at least leave a note on that IP's talk page about it? -Kapoli 21:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC) : We don't know if it was an accident or not. Since it didn't happen to 30 other pages, we need to give the person the benefit of the doubt. I know I've accidentally screwed stuff up like that. --Proudhug 21:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Memorable Quotes Aww, you should have kept them! Not everybody is that quotable. --StBacchus 15:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Meta-Fun! Cheers! I'm saving the best for last: updating the page with all the wiki-tricks I've been finding most useful. That, I think, will be useful for everybody. --StBacchus 01:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC) : Sweet! I always get excited to see the new stuff you come up with. --Proudhug 01:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Deaded Aziz's death I know you put Aziz alive but on the 24 website in season 4 it said that Aziz was killed. Oh by the way good luck in that fun mission. Falconfan Psst I put a fix for the tabs in the Situation Room. I guess I could have put it here, but whatever. I assume any admin can edit the Monobook.css.--StBacchus 08:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC) Saugus/LA/Echo Park Did you have to remove the geographical details. I think it's necessary to have a frame of reference for locations, since they play so heavily in the show. Cymra37 21:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC) : I just left you a note on your talk page. --Proudhug 22:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC) That's cool. Actually I was looking for the manual when you left a message. Cymra37 00:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC) Where can I find the map from The Game you mentioned in Talk: CTU Los Angeles Building? --Cymra37 00:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC) : I mentioned two maps. The CTU map can be found on any stage where you're actually in CTU, and the L.A. map appears on the driving stages. --Proudhug 04:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC) Better? How does the appearance table text look now? --StBacchus 12:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC) : template vs. "old way": : : I don't have a screenshot of the way it just was, but it was spaced vertically about the same amount it's spaces horizontally right now. --Proudhug 12:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC) :: When is it bleeding out for people? I just tried it at 1024x768 and it still looks fine. The only resolution I have that problem with is 800x600, and anyone using that resolution is going to have tons of problems viewing most websites. --Proudhug 12:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC) We've got a computer running Linux at 1024x748. I guess the font size is bigger by default or something? I dunno, but it sure looked like hell. I just now changed the font size to .9em. It works on the Linux box. Try refreshing with F5 and tell me if it's acceptable now. --StBacchus 13:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC) manual of style I'm not sure where should I post this as I'm new here. But I was wondering, according to the 'manual of style', all in-universe articles are written in the past tense, from the perspective of someone at an infinite point in time in the future. However I found that the article below is in the present tense: Los Angeles is located on West (Pacific) Coast in California. It is in the Los Angeles County. Los Angeles is close to Mexico. whereas, Kuala Lumpur was a city located in Malaysia. It was sixteen hours ahead of Pacific Standard Time. I'm kinda confused here. Hope someone'll clear this up for me. : The Los Angeles article needs to be changed, that's all. Feel free to do so, otherwise, I or myself can do it at some point. : Also, please sign your talk posts by either typing ~~~~ or pressing the button above the edit window. --Proudhug 06:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I have a question about this too, actually. Why are we assuming that all things have been destroyed in our imaginary future? Also, in the case of places, some of them have relevant IU and OOU information. In-universe, Los Angeles is where CTU is. Out of universe, Los Angeles is where the show is filmed. Shouldn't both of those things be in the Los Angeles article? --StBacchus 11:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC) References Are we not doing references anymore? I noticed you took them off the One Shot page. --StBacchus 03:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC) : Well, it seemed I was the only one who wanted them, and I really don't see the need myself anymore. If anyone else wants them, we can keep them, but I figure there's no need. --Proudhug 03:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Please contact me ASAP Hey, Proudhug. I just sent an e-mail to the address listed in the site mailing list, but I don't know if that's a working address. As soon you get this message or that one, please reply. If you're responding from the wiki, you can use . Thanks! --StBacchus 21:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC) The project I apologize for being harsh earlier, and I appreciate your polite reply. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just very frustrated and it gets my Irish up. I did look at the Teri Bauer and Chase Edmunds pages. Since the information about the two of them was correct, I felt the trivia item should have been corrected rather than deleted. Like, instead of removing the information completely, just change "one of three characters" to "one of two characters." Most of the time, I assume that if someone took the time to add a piece of information, they found it interesting. If it was interesting to them, it might be interesting to someone else. The information I moved from Every Episode Characters to Main Characters was very interesting to me, personally. And I haven't seen it elsewhere on the site. It isn't true that I don't write content. The pages listed in the table on my user page are the ones where I'm the only or major contributor. I used to write more, but I started doing other things because it stressed me out feeling like I would have to make a case for every little thing. I didn't know that you wrote anonymously or under a different name, so I'm sorry if I was mistaken. You're right, non-encyclopedic is a pet peeve of mine. An encyclopedia is a collection of articles on either all subjects or a single subject. Period. If your definition is more narrow than that, please spell it out. Otherwise, saying that non-encyclopedic information doesn't belong in an encyclopedia is just circular. It's like saying you don't like things that suck. Here's what I'm thinking: A paper encyclopedia might have a single article on 24, because space is limited. Wikipedia has a series of articles on 24, but only the big stuff: important characters, major themes. Wiki 24 is dedicated entirely to 24. There is no reason we have to follow the rules of Wikipedia or any other encyclopedia project. We can include anything and everything, as long as it's about 24. That, to me, is the entire point of creating an encyclopedia dedicated to a single TV show. I would like to see tiny triva. I would like to see more creative and analytical articles like Cubby or The Bauer-Almeida Connection. I'd like to make Wiki 24 so comprehensive that anybody can answer any question they have about the show, and learn something they didn't already know. Articles should be factual and not overly biased. It should be easy to navigate. That's how I'm defining "encyclopedia." A long time ago, I proposed that the article Government be deleted. You told me it shouldn't be deleted, it should be expanded. That changed the way I thought about the project. The References section that I asked about below is the same deal. I didn't see the need of it at first, but after using it on 24 Declassified: Veto Power, I started to like it. It's useful, it just needs to be used at the right place and time. --StBacchus 16:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC) : I did just change the "three" to two" on the Teri and Chase pages. Well, I thought I did, anyway. I simply reverted the edits, but didn't realize until later that the revert deleted the entire thing on Teri's page, so I later put it back. : I don't write anonymously or under a different name. Incidentally, the last two days were the first time in a long while I was able to actually get some content work done on the site, then I've got you telling me I never contribute. It was odd. I never said that you don't write content either, just that you've mostly done meta-work, recently. : As for what's fit for inclusion or not, I agree that if someone took the time to add a piece of information, others would probably find it intersting. However, as an admin, I do feel a responsibility to be at least a little discerning about what appears here, or at least how it appears. "Every Episode Characters" has major flaws right with the title, of course. Then the content went on to list not only characters who appeared in every episode of one season (as the title presumably meant), but characters who almost appeared in every episode of one season. It made me laugh. You're right, the information is certainly something worth noting, but I didn't feel it needed an entire page to itself, and if it does, said page needs to be completely revamped anyway. I thought that including the information on the pages of the individual characters would suffice, so I didn't see a problem in deleting "Every Episode Characters". I even provided reasons, which I rarely do, haha. --Proudhug 18:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC) :: Teri & Chase: I'm sorry, I didn't see that you restored the information since I last saw it. :: You said I am "not much of a content contributor, usually." If you now tell me you meant recently, I believe you...but I can't read your mind. I wish I could, but I can't. (-_-) :: Every Episode Characters: We aren't in disagreement about having standards on content and presentation. Standards are good, but.... ::#If the title is wrong, you can just move the article to the correct title. You yourself gave Kapoli the business for deleting a page instead of moving it. ::#If your issue was with one or two pieces of information, those can be weeded out quickly. ::#If you don't like the presentation, you can come up with a better way to do it, or even make a note for someone else to do it. ::#''Every'' detail an editor chooses to include or omit is based on their subjective opinion of its importance or interest. We note all kinds of unimportant and uninteresting things because they're numbers, like Palmer's hotel suite, phone numbers, license plates, etc. I might call that stuff non-encyclopedic trivia. Britannica wouldn't bother with it. Wikipedia would call it "cruft". If we're going to specifically not be Wikipedia and include trivial, crufty things, we have to be extra-specific about where the line is between things that go on Wiki 24 and things that do not. :: You once said, "Surely redundancy can't be a legitimate reason for deletion of an article." Well, okay. Appearances can be seen on the individual character pages, yes. But if I want to know who was in every episode of a season, I don't want to page through 550 characters to find them. It's the same reason we have Characters by groups, Main Characters, Recurring Characters, etc. The EEC information is living happily on Main Characters right now, but I'm still unclear on why Aruba can have its own article and Every Episode Characters can't. (Note: I'm not arguing for Every Episode Characters to come back. I just want to know.) --StBacchus 04:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC) ::: You said I am "not much of a content contributor, usually." If you now tell me you meant recently, I believe you...but I can't read your mind. : Well, I meant currently, but that's close enough. : Re: Every Episode Characters. The bottom line is that I saw a page that A) was poorly presented, B) had a questionable need for existence (subjective, I know), and C) had a falsely presented demand for it. I made the judgement call to delete the page, rather than do an overhaul or request one. This may or may not happen again in the future, but, while I agree with nearly all of your points, I don't believe I made a wrong, or flat-out hasty decision. I'm not trying to say that this information or this kind of information isn't welcome and or useful here, but I don't feel what I did was disrespectful or counterproductive. As I said, it was a judgment call, and I apologize if it's not what you would have done. Your input is extremely valuable to me and I would expect you to point these types of things out in the future, as well. --Proudhug 05:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC) :: That's fair, and I apologize again for getting you wrong. I have a two-part philosophy on getting people to contribute. First, it has to be easy to do. Second, they have to feel like their work was worthwhile. Nobody likes to feel like they've wasted their time, which is what's implied if their edit is immediately reverted. Or maybe I'm just being oversensitive. It's been known to happen! :: The, um, "demand" for the page is a separate thing. I figure, since she could have made the page without any approval, it doesn't matter if the approval was fake. On the other hand, that kind of thing isn't cool. We could add a section to the policies on sock puppets, if you want. Or we can just keep handling it on an individual basis. My guess is, she won't be around much longer. --StBacchus 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC) user: EVILjbf (you asked me to drop a line) is this how to use this program? im new to editing that doesn't involve BBcode : You doing alright so far. Don't worry too much about screwing stuff up, since it's easy as pie for someone else to fix it if you do. Just be sure to click on for all kinds of useful information on editing Wiki 24. --Proudhug 17:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC) 24 music player Is it possible to add a music player to Wiki 24? I suggested it and I hoped it would be possible. It could feature Sean Callery's music. I think it would benefit the site greatly. Also, about my fan-fiction story. It doesn't feature any 24 characters. I feature myself but I don't think that matters. No information from 24 is in the story either. If we can't post it here then is it possible to create a Wikia for it?--JackBauer24 23:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC) : It may be possible to add music to the site, as I know Wikia now offers embedded video, however I have no idea how to do it, as I'm not overly knowledgeable in the technical aspects of MediaWiki. Feel free to look into how to do it yourself if you like, and if people like the idea, it probably won't be a problem. : Re: fan fiction. Wiki 24 is an encyclopedia of information about the show 24. While the site is an excellent source of information for fanfic, fanfic itself really doesn't have a place here. There are tons of other places on the internet that house fanfiction, however. Feel free to post your story somewhere and put a link to it in your profile. --Proudhug 01:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC) Where exactly would you suggest I post it?--JackBauer24 00:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC) : Why The Sandbox, of course! Or you can create a subpage of your user page, such as User:JackBauer24/Music player or something. --Proudhug 00:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC) I meant for the story. And if thats what you meant then how do I create a user subpage. Sorry Im new at Wikia and Wikipedia.--Jack 00:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC) : Oh, I see. I'm not a fanfic author, so I'm probably not the one you want to be asking, but a two-second Google search came up with FanFiction.net. You might have some luck there. --Proudhug 00:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC) Is it okay if it is posted on my user subpage? I just posted it there. I think you should take a look at it, it's worth reading. If that isn't ok then I'll will repost it on FanFiction.net. I hope you can leave it on here though considering everyone is a 24 fan.--Jack 00:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC) : No thanks. I have absolutely not interest in fanfic. And, considering it really has no place in a canon encyclopedia like Wiki 24, I'm sure very few people will come here to read it. Your most certainly better off posting it on something like FanFiction.net if you're interested in people reading and commenting on your work. --Proudhug 01:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC) Reply To Your Message Wow, I noticed you're the Co-Founder. That's awesome. I won't post any Info then like you said. Thanks for the Welcome, Sir. Tony Almeida 24 Right, good idea. By the way, nice collection of 24. Tony Almeida 24 Sorry, didn't know Videos weren't aloud, I'm still learning. Tony Almeida 24 : No problem. We just don't want to impede on any DVD sales for Fox, by providing their products for free. --Proudhug 02:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Thanks for the editing tip, I'll keep it in mind. Twentyfour mad Keiner Auf Deutsch so kein andere man kann es verstehen. Sieht mein Seit für intel. --69.133.24.51 00:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC) : Come again? --Proudhug 06:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC) :Hi proudhug! I can speak German, and this person asks if we could have the Wiki in German, because it is hard to understand. they also say that you can look at his sight for "intel". --User:Cantanarazzo Redirects I think they are helpful. But I wouldn't object to them being turned into disambiguation pages if there is more than one character with that name. 12.217.241.98 19:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC) Alphabetizing Arab names I saw that Walid Al-Rezani was changed to be alphabetized in categories without the 'al'. I am wonderring why this was done, and should other 'al' names have the same change (Hamri Al-Assad and Nabilla Al-Jamil)? --Wydok 07:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC) : Yes, they should. --Proudhug 09:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC) ::It doesn't matter how they are done in real life, it matters how it is done on the show. You will see that Hamri Al-Assad ad Walid Al-Rezani should be the spelt the way they have been. --Conspiracy Unit 09:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC) : I'm probably not qualified to argue this, as I'm normally the one advocating that The Show Is God, but I'm almost positive that you'd be in the minority as to a consensus on how this should be done. Effectively, the argument goes that the Previously on 24 is wrong. We've seen mistakes in the title cards and credits before, so unless it's consistently capitalized onscreen IN the show itself (ie. on computer screens, documents, etc.) we're best to go with what's proper in the "real world". --Proudhug 09:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Since when? Until it is shown on computer screens/documents et cetera, we should go with the best possible source, correct? At this moment, the best possible source is, as I said, the "Previously..." title cards. True? --Conspiracy Unit 10:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC) : Right. Unless it contradicts conventional wisdom, such as mountains in Iowa or Andre and Alexis Drazen being born five months apart. I'm pretty sure that if we saw any of these names written on a computer screen or piece of paper in an episode, they'd have a lower-case "a". I'm sure it's already happened with several characters, I just can't cite any examples at this time. --Proudhug 13:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC) ::You think: this is conjecture. Who knows if Alexis and Andre were born five months a part, or not; the way I see it, men in power typically have extra-marital flings. But until such time as we actually see the lower-case "a" we have to STICK WITH WHAT THE SHOW GIVES US. You made this clear to the person who tried to include geographical information on the Greater LA area. So yeah. When we see their names spelt that way, we rename the articles. Until that time, we keep them the way the SHOW TELLS US, which has pretty much been your motto. --Conspiracy Unit 13:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC) (NOTE: This was in actual fact, me, Conspiracy Unit. I forgot to log in.) Alexis and Andre had the same mother. The show gives their birthdates as being five months apart, as well as making Alexis the older sibling. This is simply not possible, so we must either ignore it or correct it, noting the discrepancy, either way. A Season 3 title card stated that Jack and the Salazars were all in NEW Mexico, rather than Mexico. The ending credits list Jamey's mother as Erica Farrell. Heck, an episode of Deep Space 9 was originally misspelled "Rules of Aquisition"! People mess up when typign things. It happens. Should we use common sense and correct their errors when we know they're wrong? I vote yes. --Proudhug 16:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC) : Actually my question was not dealing with 'al' OR 'Al', my question was why the 'al' was removed when alphabetizing, regardless of its capitalization. Would the same thing be done with nmaes likes "de le Fuenta"? --Wydok 19:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Haha, I didn't even realize that we were addressing a completely different (but valid) issue. To answer your question, I think the "al" should be removed from the alphabetization because it's not really part of the last name; it's a preposition. The fact that Hamri al-Assad is nearly constantly referred to as "Assad" pretty much confirms this, I'd think. However, to read about me arguing the exact opposite point, see the page on Actor category talk page. I see worthy convention in both, but now lean towards removing prepositions when alphabetizing. --Proudhug 19:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC) : This made me laugh. :) --Wydok 00:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC) Haha, why, because I've argued both sides, or because I completely ignored your question? What's your opinion in the matter? --Proudhug 00:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC) : Because you argued both sides of the matter. I would prefer leaving the characters alphabetized under A for "al". I understand your position that it is a preposition, but at one time so was "O'", "Mac" and "Mc" in Celtic names. I will agree with whatever the consesus is, obviously. As long as we keep to a standard. --Wydok 05:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC) : People with names that start with O'/Mac/Mc don't usually drop that part of their name like Assad does. He's either "Hamri al-Assad" or he's "Assad". No one's ever going to call him "al-Assad" or "Mr. al-Assad". --Proudhug 05:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)